recap/history/1775678510294-Mv4cF13glBo.json

{"id":"1775678510294-Mv4cF13glBo","videoId":"Mv4cF13glBo","url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv4cF13glBo","title":"PMPC217: Beating Fatigue with Dr. Craig Heller","type":"youtube","topicCount":15,"segmentCount":155,"createdAt":"2026-04-08T20:01:50.294Z","uploadDate":"20240610","chunks":[{"title":"Sponsor & Episode Introduction","summary":"The host reads a sponsor message from Victory Grips and introduces Dr. Craig Heller, outlining the podcast's focus on fitness recovery and the CoolMitt system.","entries":[{"text":"Host: This episode is sponsored by Victory Grips. Victory Grips are the standard in hand protection. Plus, they just launched their new gym affiliate program. As affiliate owners, they understand the demands of gym owners. Their goal is to keep their gym referral program process as simple as possible. You'll receive educational content, early access to upcoming releases, and exclusive discounts for your members, plus receive a percentage of the net sales. Find out more at victorygrips.com.","offset":0,"duration":30},{"text":"Host: Welcome to the Power Monkey podcast, where we chat with the best in the world of fitness about what they do. I'm host Dave Durante, with my co-host this week being Jordan Samuel and Mike Service. And today, our guest is Dr. Craig Heller. Dr. Heller is the Lory Lokey Business Wire Professor of Biological Sciences and Human Biology at Stanford University. I was lucky enough to study under Dr. Heller when I was a Human Biology major at Stanford many, many years ago, and it's an absolute honor to have him on the podcast to speak about one of his companies working in the fitness recovery space, CoolMitt.","offset":30,"duration":40},{"text":"Host: Dr. Heller discusses what's really going on in your muscles when you work out, what causes fatigue to set in, and how the CoolMitt system can assist in helping to not only recover faster but also increase your gains. I found this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation, and it helped clear up some misconceptions around fatigue-causing factors. Dr. Heller takes some very complex internal functions and makes them accessible to the general population. I know we'll be making a more concerted effort to recover differently during our workouts after this conversation. We hope you enjoy this one as much as we did.","offset":70,"duration":40}],"startTime":0},{"title":"Welcoming Dr. Craig Heller","summary":"Dave Durante welcomes Dr. Heller to the show, reminiscing about being his student at Stanford. Dr. Heller shares a brief anecdote about running into former students.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: Dr. Heller, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us. It's an honor to have you, and it's a pleasure to see you again. I don't know if this was passed along, but I was a student of yours 25-some years ago as a Hum Bio major at Stanford. And so to see your face again and to see you a part of now the fitness community is a pleasure, so thank you for being with us.","offset":110,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Great to see you. I'll tell you a funny story if we have a minute. Last week I had to get some cortisone injections in my back, and I was lying on a gurney outside of the operating room, and two other surgeons came up to me and said, \"We want you to know you wrote our letters of recommendation to medical school.\"","offset":135,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: I'm sure the number of people you've impacted in that way has been numerous. So, it's great to see you and thank you so much for taking the time. Well, it's very interesting, the product... we'll get into CoolMitt and what you guys are doing in the recovery space here, but we want to take it back a little bit and just talk a little bit first about failure in the body and why there's a need for something like this.","offset":160,"duration":20}],"startTime":110},{"title":"Muscle Failure and Temperature Regulation","summary":"Dr. Heller explains how muscles generate excess heat during exercise, which deactivates the pyruvate kinase enzyme and causes muscle failure. The group also briefly discusses the prevalence of rhabdomyolysis in the CrossFit community.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: So, could we talk about just the different ways that muscle and the body fails in terms of physical activity, whether that be temperature regulation or lack of strength or lack of recovery? Can we just go through different methods in terms of how the body might fail when it comes to physical activity?","offset":180,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure. Well, temperature is of course what we're concerned with. And most people don't realize that we can cook our own muscles. The metabolism of one of our large dynamic muscles can go up much higher than the blood flow to that muscle. And the only way the heat that's generated gets out of the muscle is in the blood.","offset":195,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, we literally have the capacity... and this is the condition known as rhabdomyolysis, where you actually overwork a muscle, it gets hyperthermic, and it causes the muscle cells to die. So, we have a fail-safe mechanism, and that fail-safe mechanism is the inhibition, the temperature inhibition of a critical enzyme. And when that enzyme gets up to about 39 degrees centigrade, it inactivates.","offset":220,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And once it inactivates, the fuel can't go into the mitochondria, and the mitochondria can't produce ATP, and without ATP, the muscle can't contract. So, if we extract that heat efficiently, we can reactivate the enzyme or we can prevent it from inactivating, and then the muscle just keeps on working. So, I've had some freshman women, for example—maybe your classmates—who were doing over 800 pushups.","offset":250,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, these were not athletes, these were just normal freshman students. And we've had professional athletes come in, pick an activity they're good at, and that day we can double their normal work volume. And when you get that kind of an increase in your work volume, you get a huge conditioning effect. So, that's one of the limitations.","offset":285,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Now, of course, hypoxia is another limitation. Now, that's not a critical issue for anaerobic activities like lifting, but it is certainly a big deal for anyone who's doing endurance work. And essentially, if you shut off the supply of oxygen to the muscle, once again you can't produce ATP. So, we're not addressing that issue.","offset":310,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: That issue you have to address by choosing your altitude and breathing well and conditioning as best you can to operate at maximum levels.","offset":335,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: There were a couple of things you mentioned in there. One, what is the enzyme that is triggered, just so that we can give it to our listeners, something to be aware of when it comes to some of the science behind what's happening in the mechanism?","offset":350,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: It's pyruvate kinase. So, when glucose goes into the cell, it goes through a series of steps called glycolysis, and the bottom step is pyruvate. But just before pyruvate, it's phosphoenolpyruvate that has to be converted to pyruvate. So, it's that conversion step that shuts off the supply of pyruvate to the mitochondria.","offset":365,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: This is all our hypothesis. I can't give you data other than the biophysical data that shows the temperature sensitivity of pyruvate kinase. But maybe there are other temperature-sensitive steps that just haven't been investigated yet.","offset":400,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: It's interesting that you mentioned rhabdo, rhabdomyolysis. It's actually quite common... I don't know how aware you are, but within the CrossFit community it's, especially early on 15-plus years ago, 20 years ago when people didn't know that they could push themselves to the point of cooking their own muscles. It was rather common to see athletes have rhabdo and became part of the lexicon within the CrossFit community early on. And I actually, unfortunately, had a bout of it myself early on when I was first starting CrossFit. Not something you want to go through in terms of the recovery portion if you get it severe.","offset":415,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: No, that's pretty bad stuff.","offset":455,"duration":5}],"startTime":180},{"title":"The Discovery of Palmar Cooling","summary":"Dr. Heller details how his research shifted from treating surgery-induced hypothermia to discovering heat-exchanging blood vessels in the palms. He shares the dramatic performance gains seen when cooling a lab assistant's hands between pull-up sets.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah. So, taking it back even further, I think I heard you talk a little bit about some of the research that you've done on bears and how that research led to some of the thinking around how this could be applied to human performance. Would you mind just telling a little bit of a some some stories of some background in terms of how that research led you to where you are now on this?","offset":460,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Actually, it goes back even farther than that, and it all started with a bet. So, I had studied for many years how the brain controls body temperature, and that's what led to working on hibernation. So, I was very familiar with hibernating animals. But one day, a colleague who's an anesthesiologist said to my colleague and I—my colleague Dennis Grahn, who's my partner in all of this—our friend, the anesthesiologist, said, \"You think you know so much about temperature regulation. I bet you couldn't solve a problem we have in the recovery room.\"","offset":475,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: \"Well, what's that?\" \"Patients come out of surgery hypothermic, cold, and as the anesthesia wears off, they shiver violently and it takes the nurses hours to get them to stop shivering. And it's very uncomfortable for not only the patient but for the nurses too.\" So, we said, \"Ah, that's not a hard problem.\" But it was, because if you're hypothermic coming out of anesthesia, what happens is you tightly vasoconstrict and sequester your blood in the core of your body.","offset":515,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Okay, that's the 10% of your body that's critical: the liver, the lungs, the heart, the brain. So, it's very hard to get heat into the body when the blood flow is all concentrated in the core. So, we got an idea that if we put an arm in a negative pressure environment, we could pull blood into the arm, heat the arm, that would go back and heat the core of the body. And we did it, and it worked beautifully.","offset":545,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: First patient, less than 10 minutes, was back to normal temperature. And then we found out it had nothing to do with the arm; it was only the hand. And that led to the realization that we have these special blood vessels in the palms of the hands, the soles of the feet, and the face. And these blood vessels are shunts between the arteries and the veins. So, when they open up, the hand gets warm and we dissipate heat.","offset":575,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: When you shake someone's hand, you know immediately what their thermal status is, right? So, all of a sudden it dawned on us that what we were doing is using a mammalian adaptation for heat loss in reverse. So, then we started working on treating hyperthermia. And in order to treat hyperthermia, you have to have someone hot. So, how do you get hot? You exercise.","offset":605,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, we had a lab assistant who was a gym rat, and he would go to the gym every day after work. So, we got him to do some of his workout in the lab. We put up a pull-up bar and had him do sets of pull-ups to muscle failure just to raise his temperature. And one day, for no reason, after we cooled him, after we did the heat extraction, he went back to the pull-up bar and did the same number of pull-ups as in his first set.","offset":635,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And we said, \"Holy crow, what does that mean?\" It means the muscle failure must be due to rise in temperature of the muscle. So, then we started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups, and his performance plateaued, and in that one transition from one day to the next, his work volume went up by—I think it was like 25% something like that. But then we started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups, okay, that's what we were doing.","offset":660,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And in the next in that six-week period... well, go back. The first six weeks we worked on him twice a week, he went from doing 100 pull-ups to 180. But then the next six weeks after we made this realization of what the heat extraction could do, he went from doing 180 to 618.","offset":695,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: I mean, that's extraordinary. Over what over what period of time and like sets and reps, things like that?","offset":720,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: About an hour, 45 minutes to an hour. So, it's 10 sets, maybe it was 12, I don't know, nine or 10 or 12, with three-minute rest. And the rests were either cooling or not cooling. So, when he cooled his volume went up, and that was a gain, and then you keep the gain. If the next time he wasn't cooled, he showed that he had improved his conditioning. So, whenever we cooled, he increased his number.","offset":725,"duration":35},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: I mean, that's extraordinary numbers. Those are... Jordan, you look like you're wanting to chime in there. Well, I guess I wanted to ask a question about about that. So, when you say he kept his gains, um, does that mean that he kept the gain from set to set, like if you did a let's say he did 20 reps and then you cooled him and then he was able to, you know, keep 20 reps and then he comes back the next day and you he did the same two sets but without cooling at that point he's able to maintain 20 reps both times?","offset":760,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. It's a real conditioning effect. Adaptation, yeah. In all of these experiments you get a you get a continuous curve over a period of time that you're engaged in the conditioning. So, we've seen it with so many different individ- so many ath- so many ex- exercises: dips, push-ups, bench press, so forth.","offset":790,"duration":35}],"startTime":460},{"title":"Finding the Optimal Cooling Temperature","summary":"A brief discussion on discovering the optimal cooling temperature through trial and error. They settled on 12 degrees Celsius to maximize heat extraction without triggering vasoconstriction.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: Can you give us a little bit of insight into that early strategy around how to cool the body? I mean, to where you are today, um, how did you find the perfect temperature? I mean, uh, you've talked about it, that just cooling as as low as possible is not ideal, sticking your hand in a bucket of ice. How did you go about finding the optimal temperature, and what was that first iteration looking like in terms of how you applied it to an athlete?","offset":825,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: It's mostly trial and error. If you do if you do something enough times, you'll make all the possible mistakes. Then you learn from that. So, essentially, um, our first efforts for cooling were just, I just, we just chose a temperature and did it. But then we found that individuals differ. So, for example, when we applied the technology to multiple sclerosis patients, these individuals are very temperature sensitive.","offset":850,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Even a little rise in temperature makes it impossible for them to be active. Uh, so we found that we could only cool them down to about 20, 22 degrees centigrade, or else they would vasoconstrict, they'd shut off the blood supply to the hands. Uh, others, uh, highly performing athletes working hard, we could cool them down to 10 or 12 degrees.","offset":885,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, for the CoolMitt we just selected 12 degrees as being an optimal temperature. So, for some individuals it might be too cold. Uh, but what you want is you want to get the maximum temperature differential between the device and the blood without causing vasoconstriction.","offset":915,"duration":20}],"startTime":825},{"title":"Alternative Cooling Sites and Adaptations","summary":"The group discusses how calluses, grips, and athletic tape can limit palm cooling. Dr. Heller explains that the feet and face can also be used for cooling, making the technology highly beneficial for amputees and adaptive athletes.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: I have to say, um, I was on the gymnastics team at Stanford, and I remember us testing out this product early on. And there was it just, you know, was there, I don't know who had brought it in, and I was even speaking to some of my former teammates about it recently. I was like, \"Do you guys remember using something that we had our hand kind of in a something the form of a hand and it was meant to kind of cool us down between sessions, between turns?\"","offset":935,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: And they're like, \"Yeah, we had that as part of our training.\" And it just jogged my memory that we actually were some of the guinea pigs for for this early product that you had so many years ago.","offset":965,"duration":10},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, you guys weren't very good guinea pigs because your hands are so calloused. No, that's interesting. Does that play into- does that play into an effect, yeah? Oh, and same thing for football, for example, if they're taped. I mean, you- that's going to block the the heat flow. So, what you can do is you can of course wet it, uh, minimize the tapes, or lower the temperature of the device.","offset":975,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: Well, I want to come back to some of the things you mentioned. But since we're talking about it, one of my questions was maybe specific to gymnastics but also we're seeing it quite a bit in our world of functional fitness and CrossFit, people wearing a lot of devices around their wrists: grips or tight wraps, uh, just for, you know, wrist protection or hand protection on the bar. And in gymnastics we have a tendency to tie it very tight to the point where we're, you know, restricting blood flow to that area.","offset":1000,"duration":35},{"text":"Dave Durante: Would that impact the ability for us to uh, basically transfer heat or dissipate heat as needed, let alone using the product? But does that actually limit our ability to recover?","offset":1035,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yes, it it it does. Uh, so what you can do is not make it as tight, uh, but also you keep you have to keep in mind that you have other body surfaces. So, just for recovery without using a device, uh, you have your feet, you have your face in addition to your hands. So, there are five sites where you have these blood vessels that can greatly enhance your heat flow. So, if you concentrate- if you constrict the blood flow to your palms, you're not doing anything to your feet, so you still have some heat loss capacity.","offset":1040,"duration":40},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: You know, it's interesting, uh, in the CrossFit world, it's really common when somebody finishes a very hard workout and they collapse on the floor that one of the first things people do is they kick their shoes off. And I don't think they realize why they're doing it, they just instinctively do it, and I see it all the time. Even to the point where the person's so tired they can't do it, somebody comes over and pulls their shoes off for them.","offset":1080,"duration":25},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: But I eventually got to the point where I don't work out with my shoes tied at all. Like I I don't like that constriction, and maybe that comes back to subconsciously feeling like, you know, it's it's making me hotter or something like that. But people yell at me all the time, say, \"Tie your damn shoes,\" and I'm like, \"I don't want to, it doesn't feel good.\" So, I feel like now I've got some scientific backing from an actual doctor so I can go back and tell them to shut up.","offset":1105,"duration":20},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. Well, a good illustration of how important these various sites are is working with amputees. So, if you have lost one hand or one foot, that's 25% of your heat loss capacity. So, if you lose, you know, two feet, we worked with amputees at Walter Reed, and uh, they have these silastic socks—not socks, they're like coverings that go over the stump just to cushion it.","offset":1125,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And after an exercise bout, they would take off that silicone shape and just pour the water out of it. It just...","offset":1160,"duration":5},{"text":"Dave Durante: So, it's interesting you bring that up. We work with a lot of adaptive athletes too, into within our community, and we have a big fitness camp that we put on a couple of times a year, and the next one's coming up in a few weeks, and we'll have a few adaptive athletes that fall into this category of being an amputee.","offset":1165,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: In those situations, what is recommended? I mean, if they're not able to regulate heat as effectively or as efficiently as someone that has all five sites available to themselves, what's a recommendation for them to be able to, you know, recover as quickly as they can?","offset":1180,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, to use the maximize the use of the sites they do have, and that's what CoolMitt would do. If they still have- if they have their hands, uh, now we should be coming out uh, sometime in not too distant future with versions for the feet. So, we we actually did some experiments many years ago on uh, spinal cord patients in which they lose the ability to control the blood flow to the lower body.","offset":1195,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And we- these were wheelchair basketball players, and we built essentially what we called Frankenstein boots that went on the wheelchair and cooled them through the feet, and that did wonders for for for their performance.","offset":1230,"duration":15}],"startTime":935},{"title":"When to Cool and the Role of Warm-Ups","summary":"Dr. Heller clarifies that cooling should be applied between sets or after exercise, not before. He explains how warm-ups add a heat load that can limit performance in hot, humid environments.","entries":[{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah, I was curious about that too, from a gymnastics perspective. We use our hands a lot, right? Our hands are our feet essentially as gymnasts, hanging and swinging. And personally, and I believe this is fairly common within our community, if you go to any gymnastics competition, you're going to see guys wearing gloves before they go.","offset":1245,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Because cold hands are not very effective in terms of us being able to feel the apparatus. And so I was always thinking, you know, I don't want to put my hand in something that's going to cool it down right before I perform. I would prefer to be able to do something on maybe my foot so that I can keep my hands prepared for any any activity that I need. Would you say that that's a strategy that's that for someone who uses their hands would be a better route to go?","offset":1265,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: You want to cool after, okay, after. Well, it's between your rotations, between your performances that you would cool. And it's the same way with, let's say, any sport where you're coming on and off the field or the court. It's when you come off that you want to cool. Cooling before you go in doesn't do you any good.","offset":1290,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, if you're already at normal body temperature, the CoolMitt can't drive your temperature below normal. Uh, so it can have an advantage in that it could cool some of your periphery, uh, but as soon as you get below normal, you vasoconstrict. Right. So you don't going to get any effective heat exchange.","offset":1320,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Okay, so that's why there's that optimal temperature at 55 degrees that you guys like to use.","offset":1340,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. Uh, in the past, we had, for example, a cross country team. And what they would do is they would do their their warm up, their their pre-event warm-up, and then they would cool before the beginning of the race. So, what they're doing is they're getting the benefit of the warm-up, the flexibility and so forth, but they're eliminating that extra heat load that they accumulated as a result of the warm-up. So, the body has a higher scope for absorbing the heat of the event.","offset":1345,"duration":40},{"text":"Dave Durante: This was interesting. We were actually talking about this before you came on in terms of warming up properly. And a lot of times, I think we hear coaches and trainers talk about warm-up being \"let's get your core temperature up,\" uh, and that's kind of the primary use of a warm-up. But we heard you maybe speak a little differently on this in terms of the benefits that come along with a warm-up. Can you speak a little bit about where you see the benefits of taking that time?","offset":1385,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, if you're in an environment where you can dissipate heat, then you can do the warm-up, that's going to get everything more flexible, that's going to get your muscles at a peak operating temperature, which is actually very close to the temperature which is going to result in failure. I mean, we live on the thermal edge, because, you know, if you think about it, our normal body temperature is 37 degrees or 98.6, and that's only a few degrees below the point where you have heat illness, where you can have heat stroke.","offset":1410,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, uh, we we maximize our metabolic efficiency by staying at this high core temperature, but then the scope for going higher is very, very limited. So, if you're in an environment where you can dissipate heat efficiently, then sure, a warm-up is not going to give you much of a heat burden. But if you're in a very hot humid environment, that warm-up is going to impair your capacity to absorb the excess heat of exercise.","offset":1445,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: People don't realize that. 35 degrees ambient temperature at 100% humidity is lethal for humans.","offset":1480,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: I think you need to repeat that, just so we're aware.","offset":1495,"duration":0},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Okay, 35 degree ambient temperature, that's 35 degrees Celsius or 95 degree Fahrenheit at 100% humidity, which you certainly have in many places, that is lethal. Because that doesn't give you the capacity to even dissipate the heat of your resting metabolism, your basal metabolic heat. And you will just continue to heat up, heat up, heat up.","offset":1495,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: So ambient temperature plays a critical role here in terms of... so these are going to be more effective in situations in temperature zones in sports that are maybe outdoors, that are in, you know, places closer to summer events, those types of things in terms of being able to understand where your temperature is with regards to outdoor temperature.","offset":1525,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. For example, various tennis opens, they're usually in very hot weather and can be in very hot places.","offset":1550,"duration":10},{"text":"Dave Durante: Have you- have you tested this out at all with... I'm just curious, having watched the Formula 1 race this weekend and those drivers in the cars with their full suits on. We had Melbourne over the weekend, it was extraordinarily hot plus being in those hot cars with full suits on. Would you find this to be beneficial? I don't know how you would enact it, but it seems like those drivers would benefit from it.","offset":1560,"duration":20},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: We actually did a little bit of that a number of years ago, but you're right, it at that time it wasn't possible to actually incorporate the devices into the car. There's not much space, and of course you don't have the flexibility of losing the use of a hand. So, that is an area where there could be a wearable application which would be very useful.","offset":1580,"duration":-1173},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: You just turn that steering wheel into a water-cooled device. Yep, yep.","offset":407,"duration":1208}],"startTime":1245},{"title":"The Dangers of Cooling the Head","summary":"Dr. Heller warns against cooling the head or neck during exercise, as it tricks the brain's thermostat into shutting down the body's natural heat loss mechanisms. The group also discusses the insulating effects of sauna hats.","entries":[{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Um, I have a question for you since we're talking about potential lethal situations or or bad ways to cool. Like we see people in sports cooling in all sorts of various ways, like cold towel on the back of the head or just like running your head under cold water or these other sorts of things. Is that just not effective or is it- is it bad?","offset":1615,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, there are some things that are ineffective and they can be bad. And uh, if you cool your head, if you do it, you know, put your head under a water faucet or put an ice towel around your neck, what you're essentially doing is you're cooling your thermostat. The thermostat is in the brain and it's close to where the major arteries are bringing blood into the brain.","offset":1640,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, if your house is overheated, would you go and put a wet washcloth over the thermostat? No. Do exactly the opposite. So what we see in many applications of peripheral cooling, even ice vests, that if you cool the surface the trunk surface or you cool the brain, what you do is you shut off these heat loss systems. The system says, \"We're okay, you don't need to have all of that heat loss.\"","offset":1670,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So it shuts it off. We've actually seen athletes in the lab testing out various kind of cooling vests and, you know, they will do repeated sprints on a fixed bike, for example, and as with each sprint they're getting higher and higher, and then the intervals between the sprints, they'll wear the air-cooled vest or something like that. And they say, \"Oh, feels great, this is wonderful.\" And we're watching their temperature continue to go up as the heat comes out of the muscles.","offset":1695,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, yeah, there are things that you can do... a couple weeks ago, I got an email from somebody who said, \"You know, I really know that saunas are very healthy and they're good for us. So, if we spend more time in the sauna, that should be even better. So, can't we use a cooling cap which would make it possible to stay longer in the sauna?\" I thought, oh my god, what a good way to kill yourself.","offset":1735,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Because what you do is you shut off the thermostat, in other words you inactivate the thermostat, your core temperature is going higher and higher and higher, and then you go out of the sauna, you take off the cap, and boom, all of that hot blood goes to the brain. Not a good- not a good idea.","offset":1765,"duration":20},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: That's something that I mean in general I think people are doing- they wear a hat, they wear what's called a sauna hat to do the same thing. And maybe it's not to the same extreme because you're not cooling it, but you're insulating it a little bit. But yeah, I mean people do that all the time.","offset":1785,"duration":10},{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah, no, no, that's an important point to make because there's a difference between wearing something to cool your head to be able to stay in a sauna longer or one to insulate to basically allow the thermostat to work more correctly or to tell you, \"Hey, you might be overheating yourself, it's time to get out of the sauna.\" Is that- is that correct to assume that a sauna hat is more used to protect than it is to keep you in the sauna for longer?","offset":1795,"duration":27},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, it's actually going to block the heat flow into the brain from the ambient. It's going to decrease that heat flow in. You're insulating. I mean, insulation works both directions. Right.","offset":1822,"duration":16}],"startTime":1615},{"title":"Ice Baths and Water Circulation","summary":"The conversation shifts to the effectiveness of ice baths and cold plunges. Dr. Heller emphasizes the importance of moving in cold water to break the insulating boundary layer that forms directly over the skin.","entries":[{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Yeah, and that's... go ahead Jordan. I was going to say if we're still on this whole subject of temperature regulation and saunas and maybe like in our world, cold ice barrels, ice baths are a big thing too. And I'm curious to get your take on that and whether or not you see a benefit there or if you think it's overkill or not needed or maybe it's not good for you. Um, what's your take?","offset":1838,"duration":24},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I think ice bath, ice barrel, ice pads that would go on elbows, shoulders, knees for inflammation, they're all good. Okay. They're not necessarily good for regulating temperature. So sure, if you could jump in an ice bath between each set of lifts, for example, yeah, you'd see a benefit. But that's not convenient.","offset":1862,"duration":30},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: What about using it just for lifestyle improvement or these other sorts of things?","offset":1892,"duration":6},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, well, just at the- if you're looking at the about the ice bath, using it after a particular workout would help prevent inflammation, okay? That's the major benefit. The NCAA actually has as their standard of care for hyperthermia, for heat exhaustion, ice bath or cold water bath. Now, that's great because if you put your whole body in a tub of cold water, the total surface area over which you're losing heat is enormous.","offset":1898,"duration":37},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So yeah, that's effective. But you don't always have a ice bath available, okay? And we've had examples where athletes have gone down in practice or competition and they've called the ambulance and in- used the the palmar cooling device and they're back to practically normal before the ambulance can even get there, let alone get them to a ice bath.","offset":1935,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, yeah, ice baths are great but they're not the best way to have really timely treatment of the hyperthermic condition, which is critical. It's not just the temperature, it's the duration of the time you're at that temperature which can have negative effects.","offset":1965,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Can we also talk really quick, I think it's beneficial for our audience to hear this about the circulation of the water and how that's important. Stagnant water creates kind of a barrier between skin temperature and the water itself. And I noticed this as well when I was living at the Olympic Training Center, we would do a lot of contrast therapy of jumping between a hot tub and a cold tub and how beneficial that was for recovery purposes.","offset":1985,"duration":27},{"text":"Dave Durante: And we use it actually quite often here, but we were always told \"keep moving.\" We had to walk within the water. Keep moving, keep all the limbs continuing to circulate. And I hated doing that, right? It was almost like the easiest way just go in and sit and just don't move. But obviously it's not beneficial. So, can you talk a little bit about the importance of the water being circulated and why that actually happens within the CoolMitt as well?","offset":2012,"duration":23},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure. Well, Dave, what you're referring to is boundary layer formation. And you described it well. Anytime you get into a hot bath, it's going to be really painfully hot until you sit there for a couple minutes, and then you have a boundary layer of still water around your skin, and that is insulating, okay? So, if you use a heat exchange device like a phase change material that you can get in, you know, pads that you can buy in the in the in the drugstore, the problem with them is that they very rapidly develop a boundary layer so that as the phase change material is melting, the phase change material that's right next to the surface is still, and it heats up slowly, and that is essentially increasing the insulation between the phase change material and your skin.","offset":2035,"duration":55},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, it's very important to have your heat sink material circulating so that you continually disrupt the boundary layer, prevent it from forming.","offset":2090,"duration":14},{"text":"Dave Durante: I know a lot of listeners are going to hate hearing that, the people that are in plunges often, because it's such an uncomfortable thing to constantly in contact with the coldest parts of the water, but that's where you get the benefits from. So, everyone listening, keep moving when you're in those tubs.","offset":2104,"duration":14},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. Well, the other thing is the extreme exposure to cold that some people are saying has benefits. I don't- I don't think so. I think if you go into extreme cold, what essentially you get is a shot of adrenaline. Right. And sure, you're going to get out of that and you say, \"Oh, I feel energized.\" Sure you will, you've just gotten a shot of adrenaline.","offset":2118,"duration":27},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: What would you consider an extreme temperature for that situation?","offset":2145,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Oh, the some of the things which are being used in cryotherapy, which are, you know, extremely cold and there the boundary layer protects you. So, you're not going to come into contact with the walls because that would cause freezing. So what you're you have a boundary layer, so you get that cold shock, but the boundary layer then protects you from losing heat really fast.","offset":2150,"duration":28},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: So something that's like below zero is what you're talking about as opposed to just an ice bath would not necessarily fall into that category.","offset":2178,"duration":12},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. And zero, I mean, that's what people are using with a with a ice barrel, an ice tub. And yeah, you can deal with that. I mean, I've been swimming at the North Pole, so I know you can survive it. That could be a good commercial for your CoolMitt when you eventually get it out there. That new WarmMitt. Right. Exactly.","offset":2190,"duration":25}],"startTime":1838},{"title":"Cooling, Hypertrophy, and Weightlifting","summary":"Mike Service asks about cooling's effect on muscle mass and weightlifting. Dr. Heller notes that while cooling increases hypertrophy and strength, it also allows athletes to practice technique more efficiently under less fatigue.","entries":[{"text":"Mike Service: Dr. Heller, I have maybe a slight change of pace question for you. It's very biased to me coming from the weightlifting side of things. So you were talking about, like, for the example the lab assistant you had that did the pull-ups and increased their capacity like a lot in that session. And I'm thinking about it from a weightlifting side of things.","offset":2215,"duration":27},{"text":"Mike Service: We would be wanting to get as strong as possible without putting on too much mass because we lift in weight categories. So I'm actually pretty curious in any of your studies, do you measure muscle mass from beginning the experiments to then maybe over the course of six weeks? Is there a noticeable change in muscle mass? Does muscle mass stay the same but then the capacity, the output is much greater?","offset":2242,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, if you do strength training, the only way you're increasing strength is by increasing the cross-sectional area of the muscle. So hypertrophy is actually the end product of conditioning. Now, what you want to do is you want to put on that increased muscle mass as contractile fibers, not as water or not as fascia. So we definitely see increases in muscle mass, that's for sure.","offset":2270,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But we have done some comparisons between our work and the data published in the literature. And specifically bench press studies because that's something that you can reasonably expect is going to be controlled and the replications. And I think we've found about 10 or 12 papers in the literature which looked at the effects of bench press on individuals with anabolic steroids, okay?","offset":2305,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And what they were getting in all of those studies is about 1% improvement per week, okay? We get much, much, much greater than that, 5%, 10% improvement per week, or even doubling from one day to to another for a given activity. So sure, it's going to cause an increase in muscle mass, but it must be that it's more effective muscle mass because we see much greater gains in strength.","offset":2340,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I'll tell you a story. I mentioned earlier on we had some women in a class that we were studying and they were doing push-ups as their metric of improvement. And one day they came in and they said, \"Dr. Heller, you cost us a lot of money.\" \"Why?\" \"We had a formal dance this weekend. We all had to buy new sleeveless dresses.\" Some bigger shoulders.","offset":2375,"duration":30},{"text":"Mike Service: Yeah, and I- and I asked because, like, one curiosity I would have, so I would think of it, let's say, for an Olympic weightlifter, you're often trying to increase your leg strength. So for me to make a big increase in leg strength, I might end up taking like a full year of trying to increase volume and manage recovery and have some increased calories, all of these things.","offset":2405,"duration":20},{"text":"Mike Service: But if I was able to use a cooling strategy to see bigger gains in a shorter amount of time, I would assume that I might put a little less mass on, so then be able to potentially compete in my weight class. So let's say that I would in six weeks make bigger gains with the cooling than I would have made in six months with my normal programming. So I would be like one of those hopeful athletes that would think this could really maybe help me for peaking for certain competitions without having to stress so much about muscle mass management or weight management.","offset":2425,"duration":45},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, I think that that's highly likely. I don't have any data which contributes to an analyzing that proposition. All I can say is that still strength boils down to cross-sectional area of the muscle. Uh, so you are going to have to have hypertrophy in order to increase. But I would imagine that that hypertrophy can vary with respect to the contribution of water versus fat versus protein.","offset":2470,"duration":65},{"text":"Mike Service: Yeah, definitely. This is really interesting for for me on that side of things from a training aspect, and then even for us from a technique application to how we train people. A lot of times technique suffers from fatigue. So you're tired and you can't perform the same movement with the same intensity. Exactly.","offset":2535,"duration":15},{"text":"Mike Service: Yep. And this is another... so like that would be a lot of times again in weightlifting, you get very good by moving really heavy weight with good technique. So if you can recover well, you can lift that heavy weight and learn a better technique without potentially having to put on more muscle. You just move better. And that's another really interesting component or perspective that I could imagine has a lot more potential to be studied and applied.","offset":2550,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, definitely.","offset":2585,"duration":3}],"startTime":2215},{"title":"Debunking the Lactate Misconception","summary":"Dr. Heller clarifies a common misconception, stating that lactate does not cause fatigue. Instead, temperature-induced fatigue causes lactate build-up, and lactate actually acts as a metabolic fuel for the body and brain.","entries":[{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Um, I have a question for you. I did a test with your product just doing max sets of push-ups and so forth. And I guess I felt when I would do my each set I'd go to failure, I felt like it was the thing that was limiting me was a build-up of lactate. And maybe I'm wrong, but does the cooling mechanism that you have play a role in like shunting out lactate as well, or am I way off base? I could very well be.","offset":2588,"duration":2},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: You you are common with the vast majority of people who think that lactate causes fatigue. It doesn't. Okay. You can actually infuse lactate and it doesn't cause fatigue. Really? Wow. Okay. But it's the opposite: that fatigue causes lactate. And we're actually studying that right now. And what we find is that the lactate threshold is temperature sensitive.","offset":2590,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So the build-up of lactate must have something to do with that blockage of fuel going into the mitochondria. And we are looking into the possible pathway whereby that situation results in increased lactate production. But the lactate doesn't cause the fatigue. It's the fatigue due to temperature which causes the lactate formation.","offset":2625,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: I think this is incredibly critical for listeners out there to hear this again, and maybe it comes back to the starting conversation around what's happening from the enzyme perspective as to why the muscle is failing. Correct? So it's not due to lactate, it's due to a temperature increase which then has a cascading effect within the muscle fiber itself. Is that correct?","offset":2655,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, and that results in the increased lactate production.","offset":2685,"duration":5},{"text":"Dave Durante: And what does the lactate then do to assist in bringing maybe minimizing the effect of the fatigue that's setting in?","offset":2690,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, lactate is a metabolic intermediate and it gets metabolized. So that's why you have, you know, lactic acid debt and alactic acid debt after working hard. You can restore your red blood cell oxygen binding in a short period of time, but you can't metabolize lactate...","offset":2695,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: That excess lactate in a short period of time. So your temperature will remain a little higher, your metabolism will remain a little higher, uh, while you're undergoing this recovery. Uh, so essentially lactate is a metabolic fuel, so it gets converted back to glucose and uh, transported back to the muscles. And uh, lactate is also critical for the brain. It's an important fuel for the brain. It's produced by the uh, the white matter, the astrocytes, the uh, glial cells, uh, they produce lactate and feed it to the neurons.","offset":2700,"duration":37}],"startTime":2588},{"title":"Cooling to Prevent Muscle Soreness (DOMS)","summary":"The group discusses Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS). Dr. Heller explains his upcoming research on how cooling enhances muscle repair and prevents the inflammation that causes soreness.","entries":[{"text":"Host: That's such a critical uh understanding versus what uh, you know, a lot of people out there within the community think some of these mechanisms and how they work. But I think it feeds into maybe one of my last questions here around uh soreness and DOMS and delayed onset muscle soreness with regards to how this system can maybe lessen the effects of soreness that come along with high-fatiguing workouts. Can you talk a little bit about how this has been shown to be beneficial in that sense?","offset":2737,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure, uh we're actually very timely. We're about to begin this summer a research project on DOMS and it's stimulated by the fact that so many times we'll have well-trained athletes come into the lab and uh, they will double their work volume, you know, in that day, and I can always expect them to say, \"I'm going to be so sore tomorrow,\" and they never are. Okay? So that led me to hypothesize that uh the soreness is actually due to the unresolved healing of the microtears in the muscle. Okay?","offset":2765,"duration":52},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So what does cooling do? Cooling decreases, it prevents that inflammation. Uh, it also, uh, in a way that's a little bit complicated, uh facilitates the healing. So if you go to a very high temperature, the healing is going to be impaired, and that's going to result in inflammation. So if you uh, have very healthy repair, uh, you don't get the inflammation and you don't get the soreness. So what we're doing this summer is we're doing a series of studies in which we actually drive people to do a workout that will be expected to cause delayed onset muscle soreness and either cool them during the workouts or not cool them during the workouts to see if we have uh an effect on the development of DOMS.","offset":2817,"duration":43},{"text":"Host: That's fascinating. Uh, it's a little counterintuitive sometimes, right? Because you think that getting the muscle, for a muscle to grow or to gain strength you need to, you know, you need to uh have that muscle tear and then repair itself, tear and repair itself, correct? And you're saying that the inflammation that comes along with those tears is what we're trying to prevent from being, I don't know, to me it's it's almost a healing mechanism, like the inflammation is about healing the process. But if you're saying that we want to stop the inflammation from happening, shouldn't it also prevent the healing process or you're trying to speed up that process?","offset":2860,"duration":39},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, it's it's a little bit complicated because what you're doing is you're looking at two different things happening at the same time, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're causally related. Okay? So sure, you generate the microtears in the muscle, they have to be repaired, but what I'm saying is that by uh administering the cooling, you're enhancing that repair without getting the inflammation. So uh, there are many many things in the body that result or they get inflamed and it's not good. It's not healthy. You don't have to have inflammation to get healing.","offset":2899,"duration":40},{"text":"Host: Sure. Sure. I think it's just uh, yeah, go ahead Jordan.","offset":2939,"duration":3},{"text":"Jordan: A follow-up to that that you just said, um is there a potential health benefit to using the CoolMitt outside of exercise if you're saying that it can help reduce inflammation throughout the body potentially, other, you know, pathology?","offset":2942,"duration":19},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, what you have to keep in mind with the CoolMitt, and this is for even exercise benefits, is that all it can do is eliminate the effect of high temperature. So if you don't have high temperature, you're not going to get an effect. You're not going to get, so if you're a couch potato and you can do five push-ups, cooling between your five push-ups is not going to do you any good, because it's not the heat which is limiting your performance, okay?","offset":2961,"duration":38},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So if you get to a stage where you're actually producing significant amount of heat during your exercise, that gets to the point where it affects your performance. They say, well if I measure my oral temperature or ear temperature, I don't see an increase. No, for for this kind of activity, for anaerobic exercise, it's the temperature of the working muscle. And the temperature of that muscle can go up much faster than the overall body temperature. If you're doing an endurance sport, then it's the gradual increase of your entire body which is uh the critical variable. But for anaerobic activity, uh it's the build-up of temperature in the working muscle itself.","offset":2999,"duration":42}],"startTime":2737},{"title":"Dr. Heller's Training and Gymnastics vs. Weightlifting","summary":"Dr. Heller shares details about his own physical training, including doing 1,000 push-ups for his 60th birthday. He also humorously answers the hosts' ongoing debate about preferring gymnastics or weightlifting.","entries":[{"text":"Host: So Dr. Heller, we're coming towards the end of our hour together but I am curious about your own physical training. You mentioned swimming in the Arctic and uh, being fairly physical yourself. Do you use the CoolMitt product and if so what type of workouts are you using it with?","offset":3041,"duration":17},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, I'm a little bit too old to be worrying about that now, you know, I'm 80.","offset":3058,"duration":6},{"text":"Host: Oh my goodness.","offset":3064,"duration":2},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But I do work out uh on occasion and uh my one very proud moment was when my students challenged me to be their age control for a experiment they were doing, and that experiment was push-ups and the effect of cooling on the build-up strength and uh, I accepted their challenge and on my 60th birthday I did a thousand push-ups.","offset":3066,"duration":27},{"text":"Jordan: Wow. That's incredible. How long did that take you to do?","offset":3093,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I can still do if I only do one set now, I don't do it routinely, but if I do once I can still go over a hundred.","offset":3098,"duration":7},{"text":"Host: Wow.","offset":3105,"duration":1},{"text":"Jordan: That's incredible.","offset":3106,"duration":1},{"text":"Host: That's really phenomenal. So uh you have a little bit of a, were you an athlete when you were younger?","offset":3107,"duration":6},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, not really. I've always enjoyed you know hiking and skiing and swimming and outdoor activities, but uh when I was in school I was cross country runner but I didn't excel for sure.","offset":3113,"duration":16},{"text":"Host: Well we have a fun uh question that we always ask our guests and uh not quite sure if you'll have uh an answer from your experience as an athlete, but is there a sport that you prefer either weightlifting or gymnastics? This is a competition that me and Mike have going back and forth with our guests and we have a tally. Weightlifting or gymnastics, what do you prefer?","offset":3129,"duration":21},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, well I guess weightlifting.","offset":3150,"duration":3},{"text":"Mike: I knew I loved you Dr. Heller. Thank you so much for that.","offset":3153,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I translate that into the resistance type activities that I enjoy doing uh in the gym, you know whether it's uh you know dips or or uh pull-ups or push-ups or sit-ups or...","offset":3158,"duration":13},{"text":"Mike: I mean, everything you just mentioned is bodyweight movements. Those are all gymnastics movements.","offset":3171,"duration":5}],"startTime":3041},{"title":"DIY Cooling and Hyperthermia Treatment","summary":"For listeners without a CoolMitt, Dr. Heller suggests using room-temperature water to cool down and avoid vasoconstriction. He also explains why treating hyperthermia by cooling the palms, soles, and face is far more effective than standard medical care.","entries":[{"text":"Host: I'm going to take them. I guess you each get a point there, but before we ask the rest of our last minute questions, I do want to ask one more question for Dr. Heller and that's for our listeners who don't have um the ability to get their hands on a CoolMitt, um what sort of protocol can you recommend they try to see if they can elicit the similar response?","offset":3176,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Good question, uh we should have mentioned that earlier. And that is the first impulse people have is, \"oh I'll just get a bucket of ice water,\" and that doesn't work. And the reason is it's too cold. That if you dip your hands in ice water you get reflex vasoconstriction to prevent you from getting hypothermic, right? So if you have a bucket of water at room temperature uh tap water temperature uh you know your bathroom basin water temperature, uh just putting your hands in that will help.","offset":3201,"duration":39},{"text":"Host: Okay.","offset":3240,"duration":1},{"text":"Jordan: Cool.","offset":3241,"duration":1},{"text":"Host: Thank you. Keep them moving.","offset":3242,"duration":2},{"text":"Jordan: Right. I I really would love to uh have this product, uh have CoolMitt out at our Power Monkey camp. Uh I mentioned it earlier, but we have like a full week-long adult fitness camp out in the woods of Tennessee and we bring out about 150 people and for a full week of training this is like an ideal product for people to test with the type of workouts that we do out there. So I I just think we have such a good community that would benefit from testing this out with the types of workouts that we have within the CrossFit and the functional fitness community. So hopefully we can...","offset":3244,"duration":29},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I can give you one bit of advice on that.","offset":3273,"duration":3},{"text":"Host: Let's hear it.","offset":3276,"duration":1},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And that is if you do have people becoming hyperthermic, okay, uh the standard of care is ice packs on the groin, the axilla, and the the the neck, right? Okay? So we've done experiments where we've made people hyperthermic, hyperthermic, and then we have cooled them by either putting the ice packs in the standard of care position or putting the same ice packs just on the palms, the soles, and the face. And the rate of recovery is about double if you use them on the face, the palms, and the soles rather than here.","offset":3277,"duration":45},{"text":"Host: Now we got to test it out. We got to test it out with our crew.","offset":3322,"duration":3},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And it makes good sense because if your car is overheating and you have a garden hose, are you going to spray the tubes going in and out of the radiator or you going to spray the radiator? Right? So these are the tubes going in and out of the radiator. This is the radiator.","offset":3325,"duration":18}],"startTime":3176},{"title":"Guest Recommendations and Closing Remarks","summary":"The host asks for final book and guest recommendations. Dr. Heller suggests guests who study the microbiome and diet, shares his contact information, and the hosts wrap up the episode.","entries":[{"text":"Host: I mean, that's just important to understand anatomy too, like what what those systems are actually doing versus just saying, hey I'm sweating from these areas so this is where my temperature's being regulated from. Right. Right. Uh Dr. Heller, one or two more questions, quick ones for you, if there's a guest that you think would be great to have on the podcast, maybe someone that works in your lab or another professor out at at Stanford, someone that would be a good interview, anyone that you would recommend to have on the podcast?","offset":3343,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh yeah, um we have one uh actually a couple, Erica and Justin Sonnenburg uh who work on work on the microbiome. And uh the microbiome is something that I think needs a lot more attention with respect to uh our health and our fitness. Uh, so they would be good. Another person uh is Christopher Gardner. And Chris is a nutritionist, so uh he he would be very uh very helpful. I mean the big deal is comparing our current Western industrialized diet with uh healthier diets that uh are seen elsewhere in the world.","offset":3371,"duration":47},{"text":"Host: Perfect. Uh Jordan's taking those notes and be able to reach out. We appreciate those. Uh last question for you, uh if you're a book reader which I'm sure you are, is there anything that it could be something around uh the technology and what goes into uh CoolMitt technology, but is there a book that you would recommend our our listeners check into?","offset":3418,"duration":22},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Oh, golly. I wish there were. Um I can't come up with one other than writing it. Uh I've had trouble finding time to write it.","offset":3440,"duration":9},{"text":"Host: Maybe we can pass along the research studies on some of these things so people could have a little bit more of a scientific understanding of what's happening.","offset":3449,"duration":7},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But the Sonnenburgs have uh written a recent and a very good book uh essentially on the relevance of the microbiome and diet. So that would be a good book, I'm blocking on the name of it right now.","offset":3456,"duration":14},{"text":"Host: We'll make sure to to link it in with the the podcast itself. Uh last question, with all the amazing things you got going on, where can people follow along with you personally along with the CoolMitt? Where's the best place for our listeners to follow up with uh anything that they might want to have question-wise?","offset":3470,"duration":16},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well coolmitt.com uh will get you right to uh whatever is current, whatever is local. If people have specific questions they can try emailing me, hcheller@stanford.edu. Can't promise I can respond quickly, but I try.","offset":3486,"duration":24},{"text":"Host: Perfect. Well Dr. Heller, it was a pleasure. I really appreciate the time. Uh we can't wait to continue to test the CoolMitt product. Uh all the great results and uh for the listeners out there, we will be giving this a try at our Power Monkey camp. Uh this is going to be coming out right around when we have our next camp out in Tennessee. So listen closely, follow along at powermonkeyfitness.com and @powermonkeyfitness on Instagram and uh for our listeners, thank you all for listening.","offset":3510,"duration":15}],"startTime":3343}],"entries":[{"text":"Host: This episode is sponsored by Victory Grips. Victory Grips are the standard in hand protection. Plus, they just launched their new gym affiliate program. As affiliate owners, they understand the demands of gym owners. Their goal is to keep their gym referral program process as simple as possible. You'll receive educational content, early access to upcoming releases, and exclusive discounts for your members, plus receive a percentage of the net sales. Find out more at victorygrips.com.","offset":0,"duration":30},{"text":"Host: Welcome to the Power Monkey podcast, where we chat with the best in the world of fitness about what they do. I'm host Dave Durante, with my co-host this week being Jordan Samuel and Mike Service. And today, our guest is Dr. Craig Heller. Dr. Heller is the Lory Lokey Business Wire Professor of Biological Sciences and Human Biology at Stanford University. I was lucky enough to study under Dr. Heller when I was a Human Biology major at Stanford many, many years ago, and it's an absolute honor to have him on the podcast to speak about one of his companies working in the fitness recovery space, CoolMitt.","offset":30,"duration":40},{"text":"Host: Dr. Heller discusses what's really going on in your muscles when you work out, what causes fatigue to set in, and how the CoolMitt system can assist in helping to not only recover faster but also increase your gains. I found this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation, and it helped clear up some misconceptions around fatigue-causing factors. Dr. Heller takes some very complex internal functions and makes them accessible to the general population. I know we'll be making a more concerted effort to recover differently during our workouts after this conversation. We hope you enjoy this one as much as we did.","offset":70,"duration":40},{"text":"Dave Durante: Dr. Heller, thank you so much for being on the podcast with us. It's an honor to have you, and it's a pleasure to see you again. I don't know if this was passed along, but I was a student of yours 25-some years ago as a Hum Bio major at Stanford. And so to see your face again and to see you a part of now the fitness community is a pleasure, so thank you for being with us.","offset":110,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Great to see you. I'll tell you a funny story if we have a minute. Last week I had to get some cortisone injections in my back, and I was lying on a gurney outside of the operating room, and two other surgeons came up to me and said, \"We want you to know you wrote our letters of recommendation to medical school.\"","offset":135,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: I'm sure the number of people you've impacted in that way has been numerous. So, it's great to see you and thank you so much for taking the time. Well, it's very interesting, the product... we'll get into CoolMitt and what you guys are doing in the recovery space here, but we want to take it back a little bit and just talk a little bit first about failure in the body and why there's a need for something like this.","offset":160,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: So, could we talk about just the different ways that muscle and the body fails in terms of physical activity, whether that be temperature regulation or lack of strength or lack of recovery? Can we just go through different methods in terms of how the body might fail when it comes to physical activity?","offset":180,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure. Well, temperature is of course what we're concerned with. And most people don't realize that we can cook our own muscles. The metabolism of one of our large dynamic muscles can go up much higher than the blood flow to that muscle. And the only way the heat that's generated gets out of the muscle is in the blood.","offset":195,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, we literally have the capacity... and this is the condition known as rhabdomyolysis, where you actually overwork a muscle, it gets hyperthermic, and it causes the muscle cells to die. So, we have a fail-safe mechanism, and that fail-safe mechanism is the inhibition, the temperature inhibition of a critical enzyme. And when that enzyme gets up to about 39 degrees centigrade, it inactivates.","offset":220,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And once it inactivates, the fuel can't go into the mitochondria, and the mitochondria can't produce ATP, and without ATP, the muscle can't contract. So, if we extract that heat efficiently, we can reactivate the enzyme or we can prevent it from inactivating, and then the muscle just keeps on working. So, I've had some freshman women, for example—maybe your classmates—who were doing over 800 pushups.","offset":250,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, these were not athletes, these were just normal freshman students. And we've had professional athletes come in, pick an activity they're good at, and that day we can double their normal work volume. And when you get that kind of an increase in your work volume, you get a huge conditioning effect. So, that's one of the limitations.","offset":285,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Now, of course, hypoxia is another limitation. Now, that's not a critical issue for anaerobic activities like lifting, but it is certainly a big deal for anyone who's doing endurance work. And essentially, if you shut off the supply of oxygen to the muscle, once again you can't produce ATP. So, we're not addressing that issue.","offset":310,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: That issue you have to address by choosing your altitude and breathing well and conditioning as best you can to operate at maximum levels.","offset":335,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: There were a couple of things you mentioned in there. One, what is the enzyme that is triggered, just so that we can give it to our listeners, something to be aware of when it comes to some of the science behind what's happening in the mechanism?","offset":350,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: It's pyruvate kinase. So, when glucose goes into the cell, it goes through a series of steps called glycolysis, and the bottom step is pyruvate. But just before pyruvate, it's phosphoenolpyruvate that has to be converted to pyruvate. So, it's that conversion step that shuts off the supply of pyruvate to the mitochondria.","offset":365,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: This is all our hypothesis. I can't give you data other than the biophysical data that shows the temperature sensitivity of pyruvate kinase. But maybe there are other temperature-sensitive steps that just haven't been investigated yet.","offset":400,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: It's interesting that you mentioned rhabdo, rhabdomyolysis. It's actually quite common... I don't know how aware you are, but within the CrossFit community it's, especially early on 15-plus years ago, 20 years ago when people didn't know that they could push themselves to the point of cooking their own muscles. It was rather common to see athletes have rhabdo and became part of the lexicon within the CrossFit community early on. And I actually, unfortunately, had a bout of it myself early on when I was first starting CrossFit. Not something you want to go through in terms of the recovery portion if you get it severe.","offset":415,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: No, that's pretty bad stuff.","offset":455,"duration":5},{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah. So, taking it back even further, I think I heard you talk a little bit about some of the research that you've done on bears and how that research led to some of the thinking around how this could be applied to human performance. Would you mind just telling a little bit of a some some stories of some background in terms of how that research led you to where you are now on this?","offset":460,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Actually, it goes back even farther than that, and it all started with a bet. So, I had studied for many years how the brain controls body temperature, and that's what led to working on hibernation. So, I was very familiar with hibernating animals. But one day, a colleague who's an anesthesiologist said to my colleague and I—my colleague Dennis Grahn, who's my partner in all of this—our friend, the anesthesiologist, said, \"You think you know so much about temperature regulation. I bet you couldn't solve a problem we have in the recovery room.\"","offset":475,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: \"Well, what's that?\" \"Patients come out of surgery hypothermic, cold, and as the anesthesia wears off, they shiver violently and it takes the nurses hours to get them to stop shivering. And it's very uncomfortable for not only the patient but for the nurses too.\" So, we said, \"Ah, that's not a hard problem.\" But it was, because if you're hypothermic coming out of anesthesia, what happens is you tightly vasoconstrict and sequester your blood in the core of your body.","offset":515,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Okay, that's the 10% of your body that's critical: the liver, the lungs, the heart, the brain. So, it's very hard to get heat into the body when the blood flow is all concentrated in the core. So, we got an idea that if we put an arm in a negative pressure environment, we could pull blood into the arm, heat the arm, that would go back and heat the core of the body. And we did it, and it worked beautifully.","offset":545,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: First patient, less than 10 minutes, was back to normal temperature. And then we found out it had nothing to do with the arm; it was only the hand. And that led to the realization that we have these special blood vessels in the palms of the hands, the soles of the feet, and the face. And these blood vessels are shunts between the arteries and the veins. So, when they open up, the hand gets warm and we dissipate heat.","offset":575,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: When you shake someone's hand, you know immediately what their thermal status is, right? So, all of a sudden it dawned on us that what we were doing is using a mammalian adaptation for heat loss in reverse. So, then we started working on treating hyperthermia. And in order to treat hyperthermia, you have to have someone hot. So, how do you get hot? You exercise.","offset":605,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, we had a lab assistant who was a gym rat, and he would go to the gym every day after work. So, we got him to do some of his workout in the lab. We put up a pull-up bar and had him do sets of pull-ups to muscle failure just to raise his temperature. And one day, for no reason, after we cooled him, after we did the heat extraction, he went back to the pull-up bar and did the same number of pull-ups as in his first set.","offset":635,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And we said, \"Holy crow, what does that mean?\" It means the muscle failure must be due to rise in temperature of the muscle. So, then we started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups, and his performance plateaued, and in that one transition from one day to the next, his work volume went up by—I think it was like 25% something like that. But then we started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups, okay, that's what we were doing.","offset":660,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And in the next in that six-week period... well, go back. The first six weeks we worked on him twice a week, he went from doing 100 pull-ups to 180. But then the next six weeks after we made this realization of what the heat extraction could do, he went from doing 180 to 618.","offset":695,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: I mean, that's extraordinary. Over what over what period of time and like sets and reps, things like that?","offset":720,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: About an hour, 45 minutes to an hour. So, it's 10 sets, maybe it was 12, I don't know, nine or 10 or 12, with three-minute rest. And the rests were either cooling or not cooling. So, when he cooled his volume went up, and that was a gain, and then you keep the gain. If the next time he wasn't cooled, he showed that he had improved his conditioning. So, whenever we cooled, he increased his number.","offset":725,"duration":35},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: I mean, that's extraordinary numbers. Those are... Jordan, you look like you're wanting to chime in there. Well, I guess I wanted to ask a question about about that. So, when you say he kept his gains, um, does that mean that he kept the gain from set to set, like if you did a let's say he did 20 reps and then you cooled him and then he was able to, you know, keep 20 reps and then he comes back the next day and you he did the same two sets but without cooling at that point he's able to maintain 20 reps both times?","offset":760,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. It's a real conditioning effect. Adaptation, yeah. In all of these experiments you get a you get a continuous curve over a period of time that you're engaged in the conditioning. So, we've seen it with so many different individ- so many ath- so many ex- exercises: dips, push-ups, bench press, so forth.","offset":790,"duration":35},{"text":"Dave Durante: Can you give us a little bit of insight into that early strategy around how to cool the body? I mean, to where you are today, um, how did you find the perfect temperature? I mean, uh, you've talked about it, that just cooling as as low as possible is not ideal, sticking your hand in a bucket of ice. How did you go about finding the optimal temperature, and what was that first iteration looking like in terms of how you applied it to an athlete?","offset":825,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: It's mostly trial and error. If you do if you do something enough times, you'll make all the possible mistakes. Then you learn from that. So, essentially, um, our first efforts for cooling were just, I just, we just chose a temperature and did it. But then we found that individuals differ. So, for example, when we applied the technology to multiple sclerosis patients, these individuals are very temperature sensitive.","offset":850,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Even a little rise in temperature makes it impossible for them to be active. Uh, so we found that we could only cool them down to about 20, 22 degrees centigrade, or else they would vasoconstrict, they'd shut off the blood supply to the hands. Uh, others, uh, highly performing athletes working hard, we could cool them down to 10 or 12 degrees.","offset":885,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, for the CoolMitt we just selected 12 degrees as being an optimal temperature. So, for some individuals it might be too cold. Uh, but what you want is you want to get the maximum temperature differential between the device and the blood without causing vasoconstriction.","offset":915,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: I have to say, um, I was on the gymnastics team at Stanford, and I remember us testing out this product early on. And there was it just, you know, was there, I don't know who had brought it in, and I was even speaking to some of my former teammates about it recently. I was like, \"Do you guys remember using something that we had our hand kind of in a something the form of a hand and it was meant to kind of cool us down between sessions, between turns?\"","offset":935,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: And they're like, \"Yeah, we had that as part of our training.\" And it just jogged my memory that we actually were some of the guinea pigs for for this early product that you had so many years ago.","offset":965,"duration":10},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, you guys weren't very good guinea pigs because your hands are so calloused. No, that's interesting. Does that play into- does that play into an effect, yeah? Oh, and same thing for football, for example, if they're taped. I mean, you- that's going to block the the heat flow. So, what you can do is you can of course wet it, uh, minimize the tapes, or lower the temperature of the device.","offset":975,"duration":25},{"text":"Dave Durante: Well, I want to come back to some of the things you mentioned. But since we're talking about it, one of my questions was maybe specific to gymnastics but also we're seeing it quite a bit in our world of functional fitness and CrossFit, people wearing a lot of devices around their wrists: grips or tight wraps, uh, just for, you know, wrist protection or hand protection on the bar. And in gymnastics we have a tendency to tie it very tight to the point where we're, you know, restricting blood flow to that area.","offset":1000,"duration":35},{"text":"Dave Durante: Would that impact the ability for us to uh, basically transfer heat or dissipate heat as needed, let alone using the product? But does that actually limit our ability to recover?","offset":1035,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yes, it it it does. Uh, so what you can do is not make it as tight, uh, but also you keep you have to keep in mind that you have other body surfaces. So, just for recovery without using a device, uh, you have your feet, you have your face in addition to your hands. So, there are five sites where you have these blood vessels that can greatly enhance your heat flow. So, if you concentrate- if you constrict the blood flow to your palms, you're not doing anything to your feet, so you still have some heat loss capacity.","offset":1040,"duration":40},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: You know, it's interesting, uh, in the CrossFit world, it's really common when somebody finishes a very hard workout and they collapse on the floor that one of the first things people do is they kick their shoes off. And I don't think they realize why they're doing it, they just instinctively do it, and I see it all the time. Even to the point where the person's so tired they can't do it, somebody comes over and pulls their shoes off for them.","offset":1080,"duration":25},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: But I eventually got to the point where I don't work out with my shoes tied at all. Like I I don't like that constriction, and maybe that comes back to subconsciously feeling like, you know, it's it's making me hotter or something like that. But people yell at me all the time, say, \"Tie your damn shoes,\" and I'm like, \"I don't want to, it doesn't feel good.\" So, I feel like now I've got some scientific backing from an actual doctor so I can go back and tell them to shut up.","offset":1105,"duration":20},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. Well, a good illustration of how important these various sites are is working with amputees. So, if you have lost one hand or one foot, that's 25% of your heat loss capacity. So, if you lose, you know, two feet, we worked with amputees at Walter Reed, and uh, they have these silastic socks—not socks, they're like coverings that go over the stump just to cushion it.","offset":1125,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And after an exercise bout, they would take off that silicone shape and just pour the water out of it. It just...","offset":1160,"duration":5},{"text":"Dave Durante: So, it's interesting you bring that up. We work with a lot of adaptive athletes too, into within our community, and we have a big fitness camp that we put on a couple of times a year, and the next one's coming up in a few weeks, and we'll have a few adaptive athletes that fall into this category of being an amputee.","offset":1165,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: In those situations, what is recommended? I mean, if they're not able to regulate heat as effectively or as efficiently as someone that has all five sites available to themselves, what's a recommendation for them to be able to, you know, recover as quickly as they can?","offset":1180,"duration":15},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, to use the maximize the use of the sites they do have, and that's what CoolMitt would do. If they still have- if they have their hands, uh, now we should be coming out uh, sometime in not too distant future with versions for the feet. So, we we actually did some experiments many years ago on uh, spinal cord patients in which they lose the ability to control the blood flow to the lower body.","offset":1195,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And we- these were wheelchair basketball players, and we built essentially what we called Frankenstein boots that went on the wheelchair and cooled them through the feet, and that did wonders for for for their performance.","offset":1230,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah, I was curious about that too, from a gymnastics perspective. We use our hands a lot, right? Our hands are our feet essentially as gymnasts, hanging and swinging. And personally, and I believe this is fairly common within our community, if you go to any gymnastics competition, you're going to see guys wearing gloves before they go.","offset":1245,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Because cold hands are not very effective in terms of us being able to feel the apparatus. And so I was always thinking, you know, I don't want to put my hand in something that's going to cool it down right before I perform. I would prefer to be able to do something on maybe my foot so that I can keep my hands prepared for any any activity that I need. Would you say that that's a strategy that's that for someone who uses their hands would be a better route to go?","offset":1265,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: You want to cool after, okay, after. Well, it's between your rotations, between your performances that you would cool. And it's the same way with, let's say, any sport where you're coming on and off the field or the court. It's when you come off that you want to cool. Cooling before you go in doesn't do you any good.","offset":1290,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, if you're already at normal body temperature, the CoolMitt can't drive your temperature below normal. Uh, so it can have an advantage in that it could cool some of your periphery, uh, but as soon as you get below normal, you vasoconstrict. Right. So you don't going to get any effective heat exchange.","offset":1320,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Okay, so that's why there's that optimal temperature at 55 degrees that you guys like to use.","offset":1340,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. Uh, in the past, we had, for example, a cross country team. And what they would do is they would do their their warm up, their their pre-event warm-up, and then they would cool before the beginning of the race. So, what they're doing is they're getting the benefit of the warm-up, the flexibility and so forth, but they're eliminating that extra heat load that they accumulated as a result of the warm-up. So, the body has a higher scope for absorbing the heat of the event.","offset":1345,"duration":40},{"text":"Dave Durante: This was interesting. We were actually talking about this before you came on in terms of warming up properly. And a lot of times, I think we hear coaches and trainers talk about warm-up being \"let's get your core temperature up,\" uh, and that's kind of the primary use of a warm-up. But we heard you maybe speak a little differently on this in terms of the benefits that come along with a warm-up. Can you speak a little bit about where you see the benefits of taking that time?","offset":1385,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, if you're in an environment where you can dissipate heat, then you can do the warm-up, that's going to get everything more flexible, that's going to get your muscles at a peak operating temperature, which is actually very close to the temperature which is going to result in failure. I mean, we live on the thermal edge, because, you know, if you think about it, our normal body temperature is 37 degrees or 98.6, and that's only a few degrees below the point where you have heat illness, where you can have heat stroke.","offset":1410,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, uh, we we maximize our metabolic efficiency by staying at this high core temperature, but then the scope for going higher is very, very limited. So, if you're in an environment where you can dissipate heat efficiently, then sure, a warm-up is not going to give you much of a heat burden. But if you're in a very hot humid environment, that warm-up is going to impair your capacity to absorb the excess heat of exercise.","offset":1445,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: People don't realize that. 35 degrees ambient temperature at 100% humidity is lethal for humans.","offset":1480,"duration":15},{"text":"Dave Durante: I think you need to repeat that, just so we're aware.","offset":1495,"duration":0},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Okay, 35 degree ambient temperature, that's 35 degrees Celsius or 95 degree Fahrenheit at 100% humidity, which you certainly have in many places, that is lethal. Because that doesn't give you the capacity to even dissipate the heat of your resting metabolism, your basal metabolic heat. And you will just continue to heat up, heat up, heat up.","offset":1495,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: So ambient temperature plays a critical role here in terms of... so these are going to be more effective in situations in temperature zones in sports that are maybe outdoors, that are in, you know, places closer to summer events, those types of things in terms of being able to understand where your temperature is with regards to outdoor temperature.","offset":1525,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. For example, various tennis opens, they're usually in very hot weather and can be in very hot places.","offset":1550,"duration":10},{"text":"Dave Durante: Have you- have you tested this out at all with... I'm just curious, having watched the Formula 1 race this weekend and those drivers in the cars with their full suits on. We had Melbourne over the weekend, it was extraordinarily hot plus being in those hot cars with full suits on. Would you find this to be beneficial? I don't know how you would enact it, but it seems like those drivers would benefit from it.","offset":1560,"duration":20},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: We actually did a little bit of that a number of years ago, but you're right, it at that time it wasn't possible to actually incorporate the devices into the car. There's not much space, and of course you don't have the flexibility of losing the use of a hand. So, that is an area where there could be a wearable application which would be very useful.","offset":1580,"duration":-1173},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: You just turn that steering wheel into a water-cooled device. Yep, yep.","offset":407,"duration":1208},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Um, I have a question for you since we're talking about potential lethal situations or or bad ways to cool. Like we see people in sports cooling in all sorts of various ways, like cold towel on the back of the head or just like running your head under cold water or these other sorts of things. Is that just not effective or is it- is it bad?","offset":1615,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, there are some things that are ineffective and they can be bad. And uh, if you cool your head, if you do it, you know, put your head under a water faucet or put an ice towel around your neck, what you're essentially doing is you're cooling your thermostat. The thermostat is in the brain and it's close to where the major arteries are bringing blood into the brain.","offset":1640,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, if your house is overheated, would you go and put a wet washcloth over the thermostat? No. Do exactly the opposite. So what we see in many applications of peripheral cooling, even ice vests, that if you cool the surface the trunk surface or you cool the brain, what you do is you shut off these heat loss systems. The system says, \"We're okay, you don't need to have all of that heat loss.\"","offset":1670,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So it shuts it off. We've actually seen athletes in the lab testing out various kind of cooling vests and, you know, they will do repeated sprints on a fixed bike, for example, and as with each sprint they're getting higher and higher, and then the intervals between the sprints, they'll wear the air-cooled vest or something like that. And they say, \"Oh, feels great, this is wonderful.\" And we're watching their temperature continue to go up as the heat comes out of the muscles.","offset":1695,"duration":40},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, yeah, there are things that you can do... a couple weeks ago, I got an email from somebody who said, \"You know, I really know that saunas are very healthy and they're good for us. So, if we spend more time in the sauna, that should be even better. So, can't we use a cooling cap which would make it possible to stay longer in the sauna?\" I thought, oh my god, what a good way to kill yourself.","offset":1735,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Because what you do is you shut off the thermostat, in other words you inactivate the thermostat, your core temperature is going higher and higher and higher, and then you go out of the sauna, you take off the cap, and boom, all of that hot blood goes to the brain. Not a good- not a good idea.","offset":1765,"duration":20},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: That's something that I mean in general I think people are doing- they wear a hat, they wear what's called a sauna hat to do the same thing. And maybe it's not to the same extreme because you're not cooling it, but you're insulating it a little bit. But yeah, I mean people do that all the time.","offset":1785,"duration":10},{"text":"Dave Durante: Yeah, no, no, that's an important point to make because there's a difference between wearing something to cool your head to be able to stay in a sauna longer or one to insulate to basically allow the thermostat to work more correctly or to tell you, \"Hey, you might be overheating yourself, it's time to get out of the sauna.\" Is that- is that correct to assume that a sauna hat is more used to protect than it is to keep you in the sauna for longer?","offset":1795,"duration":27},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, it's actually going to block the heat flow into the brain from the ambient. It's going to decrease that heat flow in. You're insulating. I mean, insulation works both directions. Right.","offset":1822,"duration":16},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Yeah, and that's... go ahead Jordan. I was going to say if we're still on this whole subject of temperature regulation and saunas and maybe like in our world, cold ice barrels, ice baths are a big thing too. And I'm curious to get your take on that and whether or not you see a benefit there or if you think it's overkill or not needed or maybe it's not good for you. Um, what's your take?","offset":1838,"duration":24},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I think ice bath, ice barrel, ice pads that would go on elbows, shoulders, knees for inflammation, they're all good. Okay. They're not necessarily good for regulating temperature. So sure, if you could jump in an ice bath between each set of lifts, for example, yeah, you'd see a benefit. But that's not convenient.","offset":1862,"duration":30},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: What about using it just for lifestyle improvement or these other sorts of things?","offset":1892,"duration":6},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, well, just at the- if you're looking at the about the ice bath, using it after a particular workout would help prevent inflammation, okay? That's the major benefit. The NCAA actually has as their standard of care for hyperthermia, for heat exhaustion, ice bath or cold water bath. Now, that's great because if you put your whole body in a tub of cold water, the total surface area over which you're losing heat is enormous.","offset":1898,"duration":37},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So yeah, that's effective. But you don't always have a ice bath available, okay? And we've had examples where athletes have gone down in practice or competition and they've called the ambulance and in- used the the palmar cooling device and they're back to practically normal before the ambulance can even get there, let alone get them to a ice bath.","offset":1935,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, yeah, ice baths are great but they're not the best way to have really timely treatment of the hyperthermic condition, which is critical. It's not just the temperature, it's the duration of the time you're at that temperature which can have negative effects.","offset":1965,"duration":20},{"text":"Dave Durante: Can we also talk really quick, I think it's beneficial for our audience to hear this about the circulation of the water and how that's important. Stagnant water creates kind of a barrier between skin temperature and the water itself. And I noticed this as well when I was living at the Olympic Training Center, we would do a lot of contrast therapy of jumping between a hot tub and a cold tub and how beneficial that was for recovery purposes.","offset":1985,"duration":27},{"text":"Dave Durante: And we use it actually quite often here, but we were always told \"keep moving.\" We had to walk within the water. Keep moving, keep all the limbs continuing to circulate. And I hated doing that, right? It was almost like the easiest way just go in and sit and just don't move. But obviously it's not beneficial. So, can you talk a little bit about the importance of the water being circulated and why that actually happens within the CoolMitt as well?","offset":2012,"duration":23},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure. Well, Dave, what you're referring to is boundary layer formation. And you described it well. Anytime you get into a hot bath, it's going to be really painfully hot until you sit there for a couple minutes, and then you have a boundary layer of still water around your skin, and that is insulating, okay? So, if you use a heat exchange device like a phase change material that you can get in, you know, pads that you can buy in the in the in the drugstore, the problem with them is that they very rapidly develop a boundary layer so that as the phase change material is melting, the phase change material that's right next to the surface is still, and it heats up slowly, and that is essentially increasing the insulation between the phase change material and your skin.","offset":2035,"duration":55},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So, it's very important to have your heat sink material circulating so that you continually disrupt the boundary layer, prevent it from forming.","offset":2090,"duration":14},{"text":"Dave Durante: I know a lot of listeners are going to hate hearing that, the people that are in plunges often, because it's such an uncomfortable thing to constantly in contact with the coldest parts of the water, but that's where you get the benefits from. So, everyone listening, keep moving when you're in those tubs.","offset":2104,"duration":14},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah. Well, the other thing is the extreme exposure to cold that some people are saying has benefits. I don't- I don't think so. I think if you go into extreme cold, what essentially you get is a shot of adrenaline. Right. And sure, you're going to get out of that and you say, \"Oh, I feel energized.\" Sure you will, you've just gotten a shot of adrenaline.","offset":2118,"duration":27},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: What would you consider an extreme temperature for that situation?","offset":2145,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Oh, the some of the things which are being used in cryotherapy, which are, you know, extremely cold and there the boundary layer protects you. So, you're not going to come into contact with the walls because that would cause freezing. So what you're you have a boundary layer, so you get that cold shock, but the boundary layer then protects you from losing heat really fast.","offset":2150,"duration":28},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: So something that's like below zero is what you're talking about as opposed to just an ice bath would not necessarily fall into that category.","offset":2178,"duration":12},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Right. And zero, I mean, that's what people are using with a with a ice barrel, an ice tub. And yeah, you can deal with that. I mean, I've been swimming at the North Pole, so I know you can survive it. That could be a good commercial for your CoolMitt when you eventually get it out there. That new WarmMitt. Right. Exactly.","offset":2190,"duration":25},{"text":"Mike Service: Dr. Heller, I have maybe a slight change of pace question for you. It's very biased to me coming from the weightlifting side of things. So you were talking about, like, for the example the lab assistant you had that did the pull-ups and increased their capacity like a lot in that session. And I'm thinking about it from a weightlifting side of things.","offset":2215,"duration":27},{"text":"Mike Service: We would be wanting to get as strong as possible without putting on too much mass because we lift in weight categories. So I'm actually pretty curious in any of your studies, do you measure muscle mass from beginning the experiments to then maybe over the course of six weeks? Is there a noticeable change in muscle mass? Does muscle mass stay the same but then the capacity, the output is much greater?","offset":2242,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, if you do strength training, the only way you're increasing strength is by increasing the cross-sectional area of the muscle. So hypertrophy is actually the end product of conditioning. Now, what you want to do is you want to put on that increased muscle mass as contractile fibers, not as water or not as fascia. So we definitely see increases in muscle mass, that's for sure.","offset":2270,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But we have done some comparisons between our work and the data published in the literature. And specifically bench press studies because that's something that you can reasonably expect is going to be controlled and the replications. And I think we've found about 10 or 12 papers in the literature which looked at the effects of bench press on individuals with anabolic steroids, okay?","offset":2305,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And what they were getting in all of those studies is about 1% improvement per week, okay? We get much, much, much greater than that, 5%, 10% improvement per week, or even doubling from one day to to another for a given activity. So sure, it's going to cause an increase in muscle mass, but it must be that it's more effective muscle mass because we see much greater gains in strength.","offset":2340,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I'll tell you a story. I mentioned earlier on we had some women in a class that we were studying and they were doing push-ups as their metric of improvement. And one day they came in and they said, \"Dr. Heller, you cost us a lot of money.\" \"Why?\" \"We had a formal dance this weekend. We all had to buy new sleeveless dresses.\" Some bigger shoulders.","offset":2375,"duration":30},{"text":"Mike Service: Yeah, and I- and I asked because, like, one curiosity I would have, so I would think of it, let's say, for an Olympic weightlifter, you're often trying to increase your leg strength. So for me to make a big increase in leg strength, I might end up taking like a full year of trying to increase volume and manage recovery and have some increased calories, all of these things.","offset":2405,"duration":20},{"text":"Mike Service: But if I was able to use a cooling strategy to see bigger gains in a shorter amount of time, I would assume that I might put a little less mass on, so then be able to potentially compete in my weight class. So let's say that I would in six weeks make bigger gains with the cooling than I would have made in six months with my normal programming. So I would be like one of those hopeful athletes that would think this could really maybe help me for peaking for certain competitions without having to stress so much about muscle mass management or weight management.","offset":2425,"duration":45},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, I think that that's highly likely. I don't have any data which contributes to an analyzing that proposition. All I can say is that still strength boils down to cross-sectional area of the muscle. Uh, so you are going to have to have hypertrophy in order to increase. But I would imagine that that hypertrophy can vary with respect to the contribution of water versus fat versus protein.","offset":2470,"duration":65},{"text":"Mike Service: Yeah, definitely. This is really interesting for for me on that side of things from a training aspect, and then even for us from a technique application to how we train people. A lot of times technique suffers from fatigue. So you're tired and you can't perform the same movement with the same intensity. Exactly.","offset":2535,"duration":15},{"text":"Mike Service: Yep. And this is another... so like that would be a lot of times again in weightlifting, you get very good by moving really heavy weight with good technique. So if you can recover well, you can lift that heavy weight and learn a better technique without potentially having to put on more muscle. You just move better. And that's another really interesting component or perspective that I could imagine has a lot more potential to be studied and applied.","offset":2550,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, definitely.","offset":2585,"duration":3},{"text":"Jordan Samuel: Um, I have a question for you. I did a test with your product just doing max sets of push-ups and so forth. And I guess I felt when I would do my each set I'd go to failure, I felt like it was the thing that was limiting me was a build-up of lactate. And maybe I'm wrong, but does the cooling mechanism that you have play a role in like shunting out lactate as well, or am I way off base? I could very well be.","offset":2588,"duration":2},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: You you are common with the vast majority of people who think that lactate causes fatigue. It doesn't. Okay. You can actually infuse lactate and it doesn't cause fatigue. Really? Wow. Okay. But it's the opposite: that fatigue causes lactate. And we're actually studying that right now. And what we find is that the lactate threshold is temperature sensitive.","offset":2590,"duration":35},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So the build-up of lactate must have something to do with that blockage of fuel going into the mitochondria. And we are looking into the possible pathway whereby that situation results in increased lactate production. But the lactate doesn't cause the fatigue. It's the fatigue due to temperature which causes the lactate formation.","offset":2625,"duration":30},{"text":"Dave Durante: I think this is incredibly critical for listeners out there to hear this again, and maybe it comes back to the starting conversation around what's happening from the enzyme perspective as to why the muscle is failing. Correct? So it's not due to lactate, it's due to a temperature increase which then has a cascading effect within the muscle fiber itself. Is that correct?","offset":2655,"duration":30},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Yeah, and that results in the increased lactate production.","offset":2685,"duration":5},{"text":"Dave Durante: And what does the lactate then do to assist in bringing maybe minimizing the effect of the fatigue that's setting in?","offset":2690,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, lactate is a metabolic intermediate and it gets metabolized. So that's why you have, you know, lactic acid debt and alactic acid debt after working hard. You can restore your red blood cell oxygen binding in a short period of time, but you can't metabolize lactate...","offset":2695,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: That excess lactate in a short period of time. So your temperature will remain a little higher, your metabolism will remain a little higher, uh, while you're undergoing this recovery. Uh, so essentially lactate is a metabolic fuel, so it gets converted back to glucose and uh, transported back to the muscles. And uh, lactate is also critical for the brain. It's an important fuel for the brain. It's produced by the uh, the white matter, the astrocytes, the uh, glial cells, uh, they produce lactate and feed it to the neurons.","offset":2700,"duration":37},{"text":"Host: That's such a critical uh understanding versus what uh, you know, a lot of people out there within the community think some of these mechanisms and how they work. But I think it feeds into maybe one of my last questions here around uh soreness and DOMS and delayed onset muscle soreness with regards to how this system can maybe lessen the effects of soreness that come along with high-fatiguing workouts. Can you talk a little bit about how this has been shown to be beneficial in that sense?","offset":2737,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Sure, uh we're actually very timely. We're about to begin this summer a research project on DOMS and it's stimulated by the fact that so many times we'll have well-trained athletes come into the lab and uh, they will double their work volume, you know, in that day, and I can always expect them to say, \"I'm going to be so sore tomorrow,\" and they never are. Okay? So that led me to hypothesize that uh the soreness is actually due to the unresolved healing of the microtears in the muscle. Okay?","offset":2765,"duration":52},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So what does cooling do? Cooling decreases, it prevents that inflammation. Uh, it also, uh, in a way that's a little bit complicated, uh facilitates the healing. So if you go to a very high temperature, the healing is going to be impaired, and that's going to result in inflammation. So if you uh, have very healthy repair, uh, you don't get the inflammation and you don't get the soreness. So what we're doing this summer is we're doing a series of studies in which we actually drive people to do a workout that will be expected to cause delayed onset muscle soreness and either cool them during the workouts or not cool them during the workouts to see if we have uh an effect on the development of DOMS.","offset":2817,"duration":43},{"text":"Host: That's fascinating. Uh, it's a little counterintuitive sometimes, right? Because you think that getting the muscle, for a muscle to grow or to gain strength you need to, you know, you need to uh have that muscle tear and then repair itself, tear and repair itself, correct? And you're saying that the inflammation that comes along with those tears is what we're trying to prevent from being, I don't know, to me it's it's almost a healing mechanism, like the inflammation is about healing the process. But if you're saying that we want to stop the inflammation from happening, shouldn't it also prevent the healing process or you're trying to speed up that process?","offset":2860,"duration":39},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, it's it's a little bit complicated because what you're doing is you're looking at two different things happening at the same time, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're causally related. Okay? So sure, you generate the microtears in the muscle, they have to be repaired, but what I'm saying is that by uh administering the cooling, you're enhancing that repair without getting the inflammation. So uh, there are many many things in the body that result or they get inflamed and it's not good. It's not healthy. You don't have to have inflammation to get healing.","offset":2899,"duration":40},{"text":"Host: Sure. Sure. I think it's just uh, yeah, go ahead Jordan.","offset":2939,"duration":3},{"text":"Jordan: A follow-up to that that you just said, um is there a potential health benefit to using the CoolMitt outside of exercise if you're saying that it can help reduce inflammation throughout the body potentially, other, you know, pathology?","offset":2942,"duration":19},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, what you have to keep in mind with the CoolMitt, and this is for even exercise benefits, is that all it can do is eliminate the effect of high temperature. So if you don't have high temperature, you're not going to get an effect. You're not going to get, so if you're a couch potato and you can do five push-ups, cooling between your five push-ups is not going to do you any good, because it's not the heat which is limiting your performance, okay?","offset":2961,"duration":38},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: So if you get to a stage where you're actually producing significant amount of heat during your exercise, that gets to the point where it affects your performance. They say, well if I measure my oral temperature or ear temperature, I don't see an increase. No, for for this kind of activity, for anaerobic exercise, it's the temperature of the working muscle. And the temperature of that muscle can go up much faster than the overall body temperature. If you're doing an endurance sport, then it's the gradual increase of your entire body which is uh the critical variable. But for anaerobic activity, uh it's the build-up of temperature in the working muscle itself.","offset":2999,"duration":42},{"text":"Host: So Dr. Heller, we're coming towards the end of our hour together but I am curious about your own physical training. You mentioned swimming in the Arctic and uh, being fairly physical yourself. Do you use the CoolMitt product and if so what type of workouts are you using it with?","offset":3041,"duration":17},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well, uh, I'm a little bit too old to be worrying about that now, you know, I'm 80.","offset":3058,"duration":6},{"text":"Host: Oh my goodness.","offset":3064,"duration":2},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But I do work out uh on occasion and uh my one very proud moment was when my students challenged me to be their age control for a experiment they were doing, and that experiment was push-ups and the effect of cooling on the build-up strength and uh, I accepted their challenge and on my 60th birthday I did a thousand push-ups.","offset":3066,"duration":27},{"text":"Jordan: Wow. That's incredible. How long did that take you to do?","offset":3093,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I can still do if I only do one set now, I don't do it routinely, but if I do once I can still go over a hundred.","offset":3098,"duration":7},{"text":"Host: Wow.","offset":3105,"duration":1},{"text":"Jordan: That's incredible.","offset":3106,"duration":1},{"text":"Host: That's really phenomenal. So uh you have a little bit of a, were you an athlete when you were younger?","offset":3107,"duration":6},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, not really. I've always enjoyed you know hiking and skiing and swimming and outdoor activities, but uh when I was in school I was cross country runner but I didn't excel for sure.","offset":3113,"duration":16},{"text":"Host: Well we have a fun uh question that we always ask our guests and uh not quite sure if you'll have uh an answer from your experience as an athlete, but is there a sport that you prefer either weightlifting or gymnastics? This is a competition that me and Mike have going back and forth with our guests and we have a tally. Weightlifting or gymnastics, what do you prefer?","offset":3129,"duration":21},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh, well I guess weightlifting.","offset":3150,"duration":3},{"text":"Mike: I knew I loved you Dr. Heller. Thank you so much for that.","offset":3153,"duration":5},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I translate that into the resistance type activities that I enjoy doing uh in the gym, you know whether it's uh you know dips or or uh pull-ups or push-ups or sit-ups or...","offset":3158,"duration":13},{"text":"Mike: I mean, everything you just mentioned is bodyweight movements. Those are all gymnastics movements.","offset":3171,"duration":5},{"text":"Host: I'm going to take them. I guess you each get a point there, but before we ask the rest of our last minute questions, I do want to ask one more question for Dr. Heller and that's for our listeners who don't have um the ability to get their hands on a CoolMitt, um what sort of protocol can you recommend they try to see if they can elicit the similar response?","offset":3176,"duration":25},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Good question, uh we should have mentioned that earlier. And that is the first impulse people have is, \"oh I'll just get a bucket of ice water,\" and that doesn't work. And the reason is it's too cold. That if you dip your hands in ice water you get reflex vasoconstriction to prevent you from getting hypothermic, right? So if you have a bucket of water at room temperature uh tap water temperature uh you know your bathroom basin water temperature, uh just putting your hands in that will help.","offset":3201,"duration":39},{"text":"Host: Okay.","offset":3240,"duration":1},{"text":"Jordan: Cool.","offset":3241,"duration":1},{"text":"Host: Thank you. Keep them moving.","offset":3242,"duration":2},{"text":"Jordan: Right. I I really would love to uh have this product, uh have CoolMitt out at our Power Monkey camp. Uh I mentioned it earlier, but we have like a full week-long adult fitness camp out in the woods of Tennessee and we bring out about 150 people and for a full week of training this is like an ideal product for people to test with the type of workouts that we do out there. So I I just think we have such a good community that would benefit from testing this out with the types of workouts that we have within the CrossFit and the functional fitness community. So hopefully we can...","offset":3244,"duration":29},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: I can give you one bit of advice on that.","offset":3273,"duration":3},{"text":"Host: Let's hear it.","offset":3276,"duration":1},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And that is if you do have people becoming hyperthermic, okay, uh the standard of care is ice packs on the groin, the axilla, and the the the neck, right? Okay? So we've done experiments where we've made people hyperthermic, hyperthermic, and then we have cooled them by either putting the ice packs in the standard of care position or putting the same ice packs just on the palms, the soles, and the face. And the rate of recovery is about double if you use them on the face, the palms, and the soles rather than here.","offset":3277,"duration":45},{"text":"Host: Now we got to test it out. We got to test it out with our crew.","offset":3322,"duration":3},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: And it makes good sense because if your car is overheating and you have a garden hose, are you going to spray the tubes going in and out of the radiator or you going to spray the radiator? Right? So these are the tubes going in and out of the radiator. This is the radiator.","offset":3325,"duration":18},{"text":"Host: I mean, that's just important to understand anatomy too, like what what those systems are actually doing versus just saying, hey I'm sweating from these areas so this is where my temperature's being regulated from. Right. Right. Uh Dr. Heller, one or two more questions, quick ones for you, if there's a guest that you think would be great to have on the podcast, maybe someone that works in your lab or another professor out at at Stanford, someone that would be a good interview, anyone that you would recommend to have on the podcast?","offset":3343,"duration":28},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Uh yeah, um we have one uh actually a couple, Erica and Justin Sonnenburg uh who work on work on the microbiome. And uh the microbiome is something that I think needs a lot more attention with respect to uh our health and our fitness. Uh, so they would be good. Another person uh is Christopher Gardner. And Chris is a nutritionist, so uh he he would be very uh very helpful. I mean the big deal is comparing our current Western industrialized diet with uh healthier diets that uh are seen elsewhere in the world.","offset":3371,"duration":47},{"text":"Host: Perfect. Uh Jordan's taking those notes and be able to reach out. We appreciate those. Uh last question for you, uh if you're a book reader which I'm sure you are, is there anything that it could be something around uh the technology and what goes into uh CoolMitt technology, but is there a book that you would recommend our our listeners check into?","offset":3418,"duration":22},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Oh, golly. I wish there were. Um I can't come up with one other than writing it. Uh I've had trouble finding time to write it.","offset":3440,"duration":9},{"text":"Host: Maybe we can pass along the research studies on some of these things so people could have a little bit more of a scientific understanding of what's happening.","offset":3449,"duration":7},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: But the Sonnenburgs have uh written a recent and a very good book uh essentially on the relevance of the microbiome and diet. So that would be a good book, I'm blocking on the name of it right now.","offset":3456,"duration":14},{"text":"Host: We'll make sure to to link it in with the the podcast itself. Uh last question, with all the amazing things you got going on, where can people follow along with you personally along with the CoolMitt? Where's the best place for our listeners to follow up with uh anything that they might want to have question-wise?","offset":3470,"duration":16},{"text":"Dr. Craig Heller: Well coolmitt.com uh will get you right to uh whatever is current, whatever is local. If people have specific questions they can try emailing me, hcheller@stanford.edu. Can't promise I can respond quickly, but I try.","offset":3486,"duration":24},{"text":"Host: Perfect. Well Dr. Heller, it was a pleasure. I really appreciate the time. Uh we can't wait to continue to test the CoolMitt product. Uh all the great results and uh for the listeners out there, we will be giving this a try at our Power Monkey camp. Uh this is going to be coming out right around when we have our next camp out in Tennessee. So listen closely, follow along at powermonkeyfitness.com and @powermonkeyfitness on Instagram and uh for our listeners, thank you all for listening.","offset":3510,"duration":15}],"logs":[{"elapsed":"0.0","message":"Downloading audio from YouTube...","detail":null},{"elapsed":"0.0","message":"Trying download with browser cookies (ad-free)...","detail":null},{"elapsed":"2.8","message":"⚠ Cookie download failed: WARNING: [youtube] [jsc] Error solving n challenge request using \"deno\" provider: Error running deno process (returncode: 1): \u001b[0m\u001b[1m\u001b[31merror\u001b[0m: Uncaught (in promise) TypeError: Cannot read prope","detail":null},{"elapsed":"2.8","message":"Retrying without cookies...","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.1","message":"⚠ Downloaded without cookies — audio may contain ads","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.1","message":"Audio downloaded (33.4 MB) in 30.1s","detail":"File size: 33.4 MB"},{"elapsed":"30.1","message":"Video title: PMPC217: Beating Fatigue with Dr. Craig Heller","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.2","message":"Audio duration: 59:10 (59.2 min)","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.2","message":"Large audio (33.4 MB) — will use chunked transcription with gemini-3-flash-preview","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.2","message":"Skipping full-file attempt — using chunked transcription for 59.2 min audio","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.6","message":"Split audio into 2 chunks for transcription","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.6","message":"Transcribing chunk 1/2 (starts at 0:00)...","detail":null},{"elapsed":"30.6","message":"Uploading audio to Gemini File API...","detail":null},{"elapsed":"34.9","message":"Audio uploaded in 4.3s","detail":"File ref: files/6212yw31khpu"},{"elapsed":"34.9","message":"Audio processed in 0.0s. 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